Positions (role) - implications

S

southernbelle

League 2
9 June 2010
Fellas - looking for some help with what actually happens when you change position/role.

assume i know nothing... but what happens when I have di Maria on the right wing as a RWF v RMF.

SS v CF?
CMF v DMF?
AMF v CMF?

what are the actual differences in the way the AI behaves?

if there is some literature on this, feel free to point the way and ignore the question...
 
Jimmy may be a good person to ask about these.

My interpretation would be that a SS would look to drop off the shoulder of the last defender and come and meet the midfield, whereas as CF will stay on the last shoulder and look for through balls or over the top balls.

CMF will look to be true to his player cards - whether an adventurous CM which looks to get forward or more of a holding play maker type. DMF players will almost always have defensive traits and will look to anchor the defence, and may have player cards like anchor man or something oike that.

AMF will look to join the attack more often I guess compared to just a CMF. But again I stress player positions probably tie in with their cards and attacking/defensive levels stats.

As for literature this is one of KONAMI's HUGE problems.

We have a game which has so many small technical nuances that most are either lost/not explored fully/or implemented by thr player wrongly. It's this type of trial and error that can drive players away in their droves. For a game like PES, you'd expect the manual to bristling with extra info to get the most out of the game, but alas most is left to conjecture and finding out yourself.
 
^^
thank you.

it gets very complicated. For instance, does makeing X Alonso a CMF (over DMF) move forward? What is the difference between LWF and LMF? not specifically asking, just many, many questions here.
 
Im not an expert so dont expect it to be perfect but, from what ive seen when playing positions act as: CMF the player will cover the entire pitch almost all the time like Fletcher at united, Essien at Chelseas (pre injury) and Gardner at Sunderland(stamina permitting) whereas a DMF would look to sit a little deeper and control from deep, so break up the play and move the ball out wide or forward like Van Bommel at AC milan or Song at Arsenal. While AMF over CMF would mean the player covers the last 2/3rds well but rarely makes it into the defensive 3rd of the pitch, looking to be in position to play the final pass into the strikers, like Modric or V D Vaart at Tttenham
With RMF over RW, i believe its a RWF will play in the attacking and midfield 3rds mainly, and when as an ai controlled player wouls move in field a little more, playing direct for goals and assists from floating inside like Nani, or Walcott
While RMF looks to cover the whole pitch and looks for crosses and wide positions in attack such as Valencia does.

In attack, a CF will sit on the last man, keeping entirely in the attacking 3rd and looks for goals and getting on the final ball such as Owen or Van Nistelrooy.. while a SS moves around drpping into the "hole" between attack and midfiled, looking for creative links for wide players and also playing of the CF to get a goal here and there.. may work into the midfiled 3rd but only to colect the ball, as Rooney would for United

Im not fully sure if this is the case, but its how it looks
 
Has anyone else noticed the weird shuffling of WFs on PES 2012 while on defense?

A few days ago I played an Exhibition match as Arsenal vs. Newcastle. I was on defense. The ball was on the near-side, coming down my left wing. Well, after a few moves here and there, still on the left side, I dispossessed the CPU and passed out of the edge of my penalty box. The receiver was Gibbs and then I passed it to what I thought was my LWF, Gervinho, but the receiver was Walcott, who was playing as my RWF. Walcott was on the near side of the circle just above my LSB, Gibbs.

I've mentioned this before but no one seems to believe me. Perhaps I've entered the twilight zone. I used the replay to see what had happened: on defense, my far-side WF (Walcott) just shuffled down towards the circle, crossed it, and then occupied the space on the near side where Gervinho should have been (Gervinho was busy playing diligent defense). Good thing I didn't try a long ball to the far side wing because Walcott wouldn't have been there.

I played the rest of the game (until I gave up in disgust, frankly) on blimp camera mode and it happened almost, not quite, every single time. The far side WF shuffles down into the circle and sometimes across the circle.

And yes, I've tried all the various playing style changes, like compactness, support, etc.

I guess what I'm saying is that, to answer your question about the role of the WF on PES 2012: on defense, the far-side WF will drift down, zombie-like, wander around, and then once you get possession, will spring into action and sprint to his position.

:CONFUSE:
 
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I haven't looked for or tested that so I can't comment radha1 but I might have a look if I can work out what you're saying.

Re the original question though - it also pays to click on the button when you're in the game plan screen that brings up player details and says player roles, man marking...and one other thing I can't remember lol.

If you flick between the different options available for the spot your player is at, it will show you whether all the playing cards are activated. I've got a striker who only activates his roaming player card if I select his role as a right wing forward and not as a centre forward.

I "think" you can do things like put someone wide of centre but mark them as a central midfielder instead of a left or right midfielder (if you haven't moved him too far off to the side that is) and they will drift inside from out wide. Someone mentioned that a while back but I haven't really tested it. Don't be scared to put someone right on the touchline either - they'll really stick to it and get up the flanks.

I guess a player's tendencies in their stats make a difference as well. Some CMF will have more bias towards attack or defence but you can shift them specifically to AMF or DMF. If you look in their stats, they will have elements which are better depending on what you need. For example, if someone has good shooting power, make them an AMF so they get forward more. If they have good tackling/defending, throw them in as a DMF.

Just having overall stats around the same figure doesn't mean they will actually suit a role exactly the same - for the reasons I just outlined. Work out what player role you want someone to have and make sure the person you put there has the right stats for the job....in the right areas.
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
I haven't looked for or tested that so I can't comment radha1 but I might have a look if I can work out what you're saying.
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Yeah, I know, it's hard to explain but easy to see. Just play a 4-3-3 formation on Blimp camera and when you are on defense, watch your two WFs, especially the one on the far side from the ball. They will both drift to center circle, sometimes even cross paths. Then when you get possession of the ball again, they will sprint across the field back into position. Sometimes just one of them will do it. Its both hilarious and disappointing. It's like some kind of post-modern football.
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
I don't really understand to be honest. If you're defending, where should they stand?
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Wherever they stand on defense, or whatever they do on defense, it certainly shouldn't be on the other side of the pitch, or shuffling down beyond the circle like zombies.
 
guys, about the winger problems: http://www.evo-web.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=67238 (complete with printscreens).
Konami has a big problem with player positioning. in the Pes6 days they would hold up position better, well almost too rigid. In PS3 days the positioning was out the window, almost total chaos. It got better through versions, but still ridiculous.
For example, sometimes Mertesacker and Vermaelen (I play with Arsenal) switch positions. And wait, Mertesacker changes position (occasionally) with Sagna. Yeah! great idea 1,95m bloke on a fullback position. Lovely.
I have fiddled with settings alot but can't seem to fix the winger problem. I will try, as I understood from above, will put Wallcot and Gervinho as SMF and completely wipe off their winger positions so they will be just side midfielders, maybe this will erase this behaviour. Because for example: Benayoun does not have this behaviour, Bolton's sidemidfielders don't.
This issue makes me forcibly close Pes in disgust...

Nice job, Konami. You make out of the community: programmers, graphic designers, detective, P.I.'s.

P.S.: sorry if I hijacked the general position-related subject of the thread.
 
I have to try to replicate this issue so I can see what you mean. Even if you don't like where they are standing, what's the impact? Where would you expect them to be. Not being a smartarse here, just asking what your suggestion is.
 
n4p4st4 said:
guys, about the winger problems: http://www.evo-web.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=67238 (complete with printscreens).
Konami has a big problem with player positioning. in the Pes6 days they would hold up position better, well almost too rigid. In PS3 days the positioning was out the window, almost total chaos. It got better through versions, but still ridiculous.
For example, sometimes Mertesacker and Vermaelen (I play with Arsenal) switch positions. And wait, Mertesacker changes position (occasionally) with Sagna. Yeah! great idea 1,95m bloke on a fullback position. Lovely.
I have fiddled with settings alot but can't seem to fix the winger problem. I will try, as I understood from above, will put Wallcot and Gervinho as SMF and completely wipe off their winger positions so they will be just side midfielders, maybe this will erase this behaviour. Because for example: Benayoun does not have this behaviour, Bolton's sidemidfielders don't.
This issue makes me forcibly close Pes in disgust...

Nice job, Konami. You make out of the community: programmers, graphic designers, detective, P.I.'s.

P.S.: sorry if I hijacked the general position-related subject of the thread.
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I'm so grateful to you for the link and for the images that confirm this problem. I've been trying to convince people about this for months. At times, i really thought i was just imagining it all. I remember Jimmy replying to my post (quite nicely, i might add) and telling me i was wrong and that player positioning was all in my own hands. Bless his heart. Ultimately, this problem prevents one from playing an effective 433 formation (because you wingers establish zero defensive positions, even mild ones, lose stamina from sprinting back across the field, and you have no immediate outlet pass on the far side because no one is there, which is kind of the point of the 433).
 
Well, in my case as they are by default player stats Wallcot and Gervinho, Oxlade-Chamberlain have this behaviour no matter what position i put them in; be it side midfielder or winger.
I am thinking that it is a stat problem, as they still have winger position in there. so, i will try to remove that and then try to see if it still happening.
But, I checked Bolton side players and they do have winger position available, but they do not cut inside.
I thought it was a function of the arrows set for each player (check with PesEditor v1.7 by Wild@), but when changing them to just straight it does not seem to fix the problem...
CalcioCalabrese, the thing is the far side flank remains occupied just by the fullback so you get pounded on by the attacking CPU and when you want to attack you haven't got the winger to pass it to, you have to wait for him to get back. this completely disrupts the balance of the game. makes it unplayable due to having to over compensate with central midfielders on the far flank and being overloaded with wingers on near flank. The pictures I just posted in the other thread are pretty self explanatory, i think.

Konami, made a f1 car (haha pes12 is not that good, just complicated like that), put us in it, whilst running 250 km/h and say: ok now you have to set up the car so you can take very sharp corners. other wise you will repeatedly crash in excruciating pain. good luck.
 
n4p4st4 said:
I am thinking that it is a stat problem, as they still have winger position in there. so, i will try to remove that and then try to see if it still happening.
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I've tried that--no help, though perhaps your tinkering may prove fruitful.
 
radha1 said:
Has anyone else noticed the weird shuffling of WFs on PES 2012 while on defense?

A few days ago I played an Exhibition match as Arsenal vs. Newcastle. I was on defense. The ball was on the near-side, coming down my left wing. Well, after a few moves here and there, still on the left side, I dispossessed the CPU and passed out of the edge of my penalty box. The receiver was Gibbs and then I passed it to what I thought was my LWF, Gervinho, but the receiver was Walcott, who was playing as my RWF. Walcott was on the near side of the circle just above my LSB, Gibbs.
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This happens to Lennon when employed as RMF as well. No matter how hard I try to get him to stick to the right side, he's hardly ever there when I need him to be. The problem is also that Bale is not on the right, he is somewhere else when this happens, in no mans land without a purpose.

CD's and SB's switching roles for no good reason, Midfielders are often not where you'd expect them to be etc. I could go on, but I expect I'm not the onlyone noticing this... I disagree passionately with the guy that claimed that PES tactics is a work of art, I think it's a bloody mess.
 
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yep, it does not work. i don't have any idea left for a fix. just maybe a windows reinstall. but i'm not willing to re-do my photoshop settings all over again.
it's a pain.
i have tried playing with barca and it's the same story. some people say it is not happening to them. if that's accurate it means that this might be fixed somehow.
but at least for now it's beyond me. and it makes me dislike pes and konami more and more because this could be a quite enjoyable game, but for niggling faults (which i could accept), and for this massive bug.

can anyone else but us who reported this bug please confirm they have or have not encountered this situation, under the same circumstance? (playing with arsenal, barca, tottenham, juventus, 4-3-3 system, etc.)
 
thanks to everyone that posted replies. very helpful indeed.

its interesting because WE/PES lifers get bogged down in what they want out of this game, but really there is not another sports video game like it. even on off years there is so much hidden, the "magic" some people write about. its not just a manual, and off you go. you need the community. you need to play, pay attention, and play again.

its what the other guys dont get, never will.
 
n4p4st4 said:
yep, it does not work. i don't have any idea left for a fix. just maybe a windows reinstall. but i'm not willing to re-do my photoshop settings all over again.
it's a pain.
i have tried playing with barca and it's the same story. some people say it is not happening to them. if that's accurate it means that this might be fixed somehow.
but at least for now it's beyond me. and it makes me dislike pes and konami more and more because this could be a quite enjoyable game, but for niggling faults (which i could accept), and for this massive bug.

can anyone else but us who reported this bug please confirm they have or have not encountered this situation, under the same circumstance? (playing with arsenal, barca, tottenham, juventus, 4-3-3 system, etc.)
Click to expand...

So in my never-ending quest to play a 433 i went back to the original, retail, out of the box version of pes 2012, with no option files, and nonupdated roster, in other words the original holy of the holies, and by god i think i just played an authentic 433. Insteas of shuffling down into the circle and crossing paths with each other, the wingers retreated into their own halves and pretty much stayed on their own side of the pitch...except a few times when they tracked a run. Most importantly, when i regained possession in my box and played out, the wingers were within striking distance of their original positions.
 
Oh, screw it. I just realized that the default formation for arsenal was 4231, with side midfielders instead of wingers. When i put them as wingers in a 433 they did their whole zombie dance again...sweet lord.
 
yes, mate. but this happens for me even when i assign them side midfield positions. it happened also when i did a fresh install of pes, on a clean game.
it is a mistery. i will try after a windows reinstall in the near future.
can you confirm that this bug does not happen with other teams like I noticed with Bolton, but happens with Barca for example?
 
n4p4st4 said:
yes, mate. but this happens for me even when i assign them side midfield positions. it happened also when i did a fresh install of pes, on a clean game.
it is a mistery. i will try after a windows reinstall in the near future.
can you confirm that this bug does not happen with other teams like I noticed with Bolton, but happens with Barca for example?
Click to expand...

yeah, well, i feel so foolish and I'm sorry for wasting your time. the 433, even with an out-of-the-box pes 2012, is still hopeless. I regret to say that I noticed this with all teams I played, including arsenal, bolton, and barca. Why bolton is different for you is a mystery.

however, the 4231 works out-of-the-box, with those same teams and I presume all the others. I just played as arsenal vs. newcastle in this formation and all was fine though not ideal (since i want to play a bloody 433). Of course i had 64% of the possession but I guess that is another thread, another day, more of the same absurd gameplay...
 
no problems, mate. no need to apologize. i cannot understand this issue. what's frustrating is that we seem to be the only ones and nobody notices or says: look, you two are mad, or your doing something wrong.
maybe 2013 will be smashing...haha...
did you try with a different patch? i tryied with firepatch, but still the same.
 
I looked into the 433 issue, and as i said im no PES expert so my opinion is limited but.. i found that with my ML squad i have two options for each wing.. Shimizu playing down the right stuck to his wing at all times, and barely touched the sefensive 3rd (except one corner late on) while Garcia was all over the place all the time.. floating into the middle and leaving the wing empty..

While on the left Petrov did the same as Shimizu, but my other winger Nikolic was like Garcia..

The only clear difference i saw between the different players is Shimi and Petrov both are SMF by favour, and Garcia and Nikolic are WF by Favour.. see if you guess can make a little more sense of it
 
I reinstalled Windows and the same thing happens. Well, in the clean game, Nasri did not shuffle to the other side of the pitch. I am trying to investigate this. It may be a combination of 4-3-3 system + players which have winger positions + defense and teamwork ratings (but i might be mistaking here) + team settings in PesEditor.
 
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