The "Not happy with PES 2012" thread

Which PES 2012 version do you prefer?

  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .
I've never understood the 'LAST CHANCE!!!' or 'NEVER RETURNING' mentality, as if it's some sort of threat that'd kick Konami into gear.

If PES 13 was woeful, but PES 14 turned out to be a true revolution, would you not buy it purely out of spite for the former?

Konami are aware of the collapse of market share in recent years, they just seem out of touch with what people want.
 
dannyfc2 said:
I've never understood the 'LAST CHANCE!!!' or 'NEVER RETURNING' mentality, as if it's some sort of threat that'd kick Konami into gear.

If PES 13 was woeful, but PES 14 turned out to be a true revolution, would you not buy it purely out of spite for the former?

Konami are aware of the collapse of market share in recent years, they just seem out of touch with what people want.
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I think people say it purely out of frustration but your right people will come running back once Konami make a really good football game.
 
Jamezinho said:
Klashman made a couple of good Youtube videos about this issue. PES2010 had some really nice, clever and unique animations which were more of a throwback to what PES was always famed for, but for whatever reason the depth of animations has been slimmed down in PES2011/12.
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Yeah there are some lovely contextual animations but they are let down by some terrible running animations thrown in, but all in all it is better than the later versions in that respect.

This is hilarious, after being so disappointed with PES2012 I'm really enjoying PES2010. In broadcast 1 camera the game still looks stunning, the matches feel far more balanced than 2011 and 2012 in terms of COU possession and midfield play, and I think there's a lot to learn too. Using L2 when dribbling does some interesting stuff.

For just 40p I might have found a PES to tide me over until the next one. But I still can't get over how superior the game looks in comparison. Where did Konami go so wrong?
 
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@LTFC How do you cope for example with the severe response times and very poor refereeing? I also tested PES 2010 again recently, and although I loved the still amazing graphics, some nice animation dynamics and great shooting, everything else made it quite unplayable.
 
LTFC said:
Yeah there are some lovely contextual animations but they are let down by some terrible running animations thrown in, but all in all it is better than the later versions in that respect.

This is hilarious, after being so disappointed with PES2012 I'm really enjoying PES2010. In broadcast 1 camera the game still looks stunning, the matches feel far more balanced than 2011 and 2012 in terms of COU possession and midfield play, and I think there's a lot to learn too. Using L2 when dribbling does some interesting stuff.

For just 40p I might have found a PES to tide me over until the next one. But I still can't get over how superior the game looks in comparison. Where did Konami go so wrong?
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I don't know why I didn't play 2010 much, I kind of glossed that one over even though, like you say, graphically and in terms of CPU possession and build up play, it seemed good.

Like Anderson said, what are the drawbacks though, I remember it being lightening fast, is this so?
 
I've had enough of this game. No matter how you tinker with gameplay patches, individual stats, formations, it is what it is. Very limited/linear game. Does not meet my expectations for 2012 period. I can't stand being stuck forever in exhibition mode because any attempt to play ML turns into a nightmare. It's like having sex with clothes on. And that is miles better actually.
 
LTFC said:
Yeah there are some lovely contextual animations but they are let down by some terrible running animations thrown in, but all in all it is better than the later versions in that respect.

This is hilarious, after being so disappointed with PES2012 I'm really enjoying PES2010. In broadcast 1 camera the game still looks stunning, the matches feel far more balanced than 2011 and 2012 in terms of COU possession and midfield play, and I think there's a lot to learn too. Using L2 when dribbling does some interesting stuff.

For just 40p I might have found a PES to tide me over until the next one. But I still can't get over how superior the game looks in comparison. Where did Konami go so wrong?
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They let things go downhill absolutely.
I didn't play PES 2010, because that was a year I spent without a console. But I played at my mate's a couple of times and I do remember liking the graphics. The midfield play, not so much. Too many 50/50's and the ball ricocheting all over the place, seemed a bit of a grind to me... but hey, must be a work of genius compared to PES 2012, I'll take your word for it!

I'm doing the same with PES 2011, using it to get me by until PES 2013 (if it's playable, that is).
But if you want to update the transfers, uniforms, etc, how do you do? I've been having a hard time trying to find OFs that are updated to this 2011-12 season...
 
_anderson said:
@LTFC How do you cope for example with the severe response times and very poor refereeing? I also tested PES 2010 again recently, and although I loved the still amazing graphics, some nice animation dynamics and great shooting, everything else made it quite unplayable.
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I haven't found an issue with response times at all on the PS3 version. It's not something I've noticed. The ball is kicked as and when I press the buttons.

I'll have to wait and see what issues surface with the game, but one thing's for sure, I'm one hell of a lot more forgiving with this game considering it's a. old and b. cost 40p!

ccshopland said:
I don't know why I didn't play 2010 much, I kind of glossed that one over even though, like you say, graphically and in terms of CPU possession and build up play, it seemed good.

Like Anderson said, what are the drawbacks though, I remember it being lightening fast, is this so?
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It is fast if you make it so, but there is still scope against the CPU to play slower (less sprinting, be patient etc). I'd say it's as fast as PES2012 on zero speed. A bit too fast, but I think that's because the ball is a lot more automated and so moves faster. Player movement I'd say is somewhere between 2011 and 2012, which I like. I'm going to try using some of the ways of playing from 2011, like using R2 etc. I'm not sure if they'd brought this stuff in by this stage but we'll see.

To be honest the animations are of around the same standard IMO as 2012, and this is offset by the graphics being far in excess of anything they've done since. Really bizarre.

I'm also gonna give the ML a go with this, people seemed to really enjoy it, so I'm looking forward to seeing what features Konami added then promptly decided to get rid of for the later games :P

Rentboy said:
But if you want to update the transfers, uniforms, etc, how do you do? I've been having a hard time trying to find OFs that are updated to this 2011-12 season...
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For 2010 there must still be option files out there but I severely doubt anyone's making them with up to date, 2012 kits. I'd say the editing scene for older PES games (except PES5 and 6 it seems) has long gone now.
 
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I say things will never be the same because in this gen, fifa games are getting better, not worse. Incredibly or not, i´m enjoying career mode in fifa 12, and it´s not because of Pes 12 frustration syndrome, it´s because it is good( with the sliders). It is a game with some substance, and is getting better...
 
For all that is good with FIFA, shooting in particular, I still can't play it for more than a couple of games at a time because of how frustrating and unrealistic the stop start motion looks. Not sure if it's just momentum or the way the animations play out but it doesn't seem to flow well enough. It so eats away at me because it really detracts from all the great visuals they have going on.
 
I have given up on PES 12. There are just too many other quality games out there that wasting my time on such a mess isn't warranted. I just picked up MLB 12 The Show, and although I know that baseball doesn't have much appeal outside the USA, believe me when I say that this game is a true gem and caters to the hardcore sim crowd who are truly passionate about the sport. This game is made by Sony, so it's a PS3 exclusive and is actually moving systems (both PS3 & Vita). MLB has the best graphics of any sports games (even better than NBA 2k12), has an incredibly steep learning curve and is the direct opposite of "pick up and play". Konami should take a cue from this game and understand that there is a huge market for serious, unforgiving, authentic sim sports titles. Stop trying to be a crappy FIFA wanna be and get back to the core that made PES so great.
 
trup2foryou said:
Konami should take a cue from this game and understand that there is a huge market for serious, unforgiving, authentic sim sports titles. Stop trying to be a crappy FIFA wanna be and get back to the core that made PES so great.
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I would put money on PES far outselling MLB The Show games, making PES for the hardcore would result in losing sales which doesnt make any sense business wise.
 
Flaw3d Genius said:
I would put money on PES far outselling MLB The Show games, making PES for the hardcore would result in losing sales which doesnt make any sense business wise.
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I would also bet on PES outselling any baseball game. MLB The Show only sells in North America and is also only on PS3, so comparing the 2 in terms of ability to move units is not the point. My point was that MLB makes no compromises and is a fan service to those who truly love the sport - and is the most critically acclaimed and popular baseball title ever, and will sell over 1 million copies (again, only in the US and only on PS3). This is very similar to NBA 2k12 which forced EA's to actually pull their basketball title prior to launch. Again, I reiterate my belief that if Konami (or any other company) had the balls to make a truly authentic soccer title that played as realistic a soccer game - both in gameplay and tactic/strategy options - as MLB The Show or NBA 2k series do for their respective sports, it would be huge.
 
trup2foryou said:
I would also bet on PES outselling any baseball game. MLB The Show only sells in North America and is also only on PS3, so comparing the 2 in terms of ability to move units is not the point. My point was that MLB makes no compromises and is a fan service to those who truly love the sport - and is the most critically acclaimed and popular baseball title ever, and will sell over 1 million copies (again, only in the US and only on PS3). This is very similar to NBA 2k12 which forced EA's to actually pull their basketball title prior to launch. Again, I reiterate my belief that if Konami (or any other company) had the balls to make a truly authentic soccer title that played as realistic a soccer game - both in gameplay and tactic/strategy options - as MLB The Show or NBA 2k series do for their respective sports, it would be huge.
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Konami are really struggling to get anywhere near the level they were at on PS1 & PS2 so you could be right a reboot could be the answer. Lets see what 2013 brings.
 
I don't think 2013 will be much different because they're busy developing the new engine, or if not then they facking well should be...

I agree, a reboot is the best way to go from here. Get a new engine, maybe a new name, make the western version much more relevant to its market in terms of presentation, and use the engine to start gameplay from scratch. I think they can only achieve this by concentrating on next gen.
 
LTFC said:
I don't think 2013 will be much different because they're busy developing the new engine, or if not then they facking well should be...

I agree, a reboot is the best way to go from here. Get a new engine, maybe a new name, make the western version much more relevant to its market in terms of presentation, and use the engine to start gameplay from scratch. I think they can only achieve this by concentrating on next gen.
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One minute we were getting a brand spanking new PES (like every year) and the next it's "next year" (like every year) It should be different as 2012 is VASTLY different to 2011.

Whatever they do it's no excuse for PES 2013 not being good, this year they need to bring out a top quality game for the people that have stood by them in their darkest days. With the WENB guys (not everyone's cup of tea but they know what made PES tick in the old days) working so closely with them for 2013 it should finally be the game that we want.
 
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LTFC said:
For just 40p I might have found a PES to tide me over until the next one. But I still can't get over how superior the game looks in comparison. Where did Konami go so wrong?
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Yeah i'm back playing WE9LE with the K-patch. I won't say it's a better football game than any of the subsequent games but there is one thing this game has over the others and that is good balance. The game honestly feels like a football-rpg hybrid in comparison to the newer games. So does PES 6 but it's a preference issue with me because WE9LE focuses on defence>attack whereas PES6 was more attack>defence.

For my money i think that Konami have just gone for too much aesthetic quality over concentrating on sorting out the core of the game. The game doesn't seem to have a philosophy anymore or if it does graphics have taken priority. I'm pretty sure Konami are conscious that a lot of the market wants a game that looks good and are adhering to that notion. They may struggle graphics-wise but really i'd say that they put graphics first. PES 2012 doesn't feel structured from the core up. It feels like they tried to make the game look good and then go from there and failed to realise that there are a lot of problems with the gameplay.

To be honest i think that can be seen as an analogy for a lot of games this gen, beyond just PES. The Japanese market doesn't seem to be able to cope with perfecting graphics even though they usually fall well short of doing that. Too much time spent on them and not enough on game design. It's funny because most of the games i think have depth look poor and most of the games i think look good have no depth. I don't see it as a coincidence.

I think in order to progress the game to the level we want, i.e depth, then Konami have to take a back seat and say you know what graphics aren't everything so let's focus on the game and how all the components of it work in tandem. I don't think that cushion exists at current at all. After all half the time we spend time this board spends time focusing on what looks realistic, not what feels realistic.

trup2foryou said:
I have given up on PES 12. There are just too many other quality games out there that wasting my time on such a mess isn't warranted. I just picked up MLB 12 The Show, and although I know that baseball doesn't have much appeal outside the USA, believe me when I say that this game is a true gem and caters to the hardcore sim crowd who are truly passionate about the sport. This game is made by Sony, so it's a PS3 exclusive and is actually moving systems (both PS3 & Vita). MLB has the best graphics of any sports games (even better than NBA 2k12), has an incredibly steep learning curve and is the direct opposite of "pick up and play". Konami should take a cue from this game and understand that there is a huge market for serious, unforgiving, authentic sim sports titles. Stop trying to be a crappy FIFA wanna be and get back to the core that made PES so great.
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Yeah i agree though given how much Konami seem to struggle with graphics i'd say they should just use what they have now and build the gameplay on that. I mean i don't really hold out much hope of PES having fantastic visuals and great gameplay. Seems beyond Konami and it always did (what with the older PES' generally always seen as the worse looking of the two big football games).
 
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Northzzz said:
Yeah i'm back playing WE9LE with the K-patch. I won't say it's a better football game than any of the subsequent games but there is one thing this game has over the others and that is good balance. The game honestly feels like a football-rpg hybrid in comparison to the newer games. So does PES 6 but it's a preference issue with me because WE9LE focuses on defence>attack whereas PES6 was more attack>defence.

For my money i think that Konami have just gone for too much aesthetic quality over concentrating on sorting out the core of the game. The game doesn't seem to have a philosophy anymore or if it does graphics have taken priority. I'm pretty sure Konami are conscious that a lot of the market wants a game that looks good and are adhering to that notion. They may struggle graphics-wise but really i'd say that they put graphics first. PES 2012 doesn't feel structured from the core up. It feels like they tried to make the game look good and then go from there and failed to realise that there are a lot of problems with the gameplay.

To be honest i think that can be seen as an analogy for a lot of games this gen, beyond just PES. The Japanese market doesn't seem to be able to cope with perfecting graphics. Too much time spent on them and not enough on game design.
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PES 2012 is an awful looking game so god help us if they do put graphics above everything else and this is what they came up with.

I think there is method in they're madness but they seem to lack the skill of trying to pull off what they are trying to achieve/vision.
 
Flaw3d Genius said:
PES 2012 is an awful looking game so god help us if they do put graphics above everything else and this is what they came up with.

I think there is method in they're madness but they seem to lack the skill of trying to pull off what they are trying to achieve/vision.
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The graphics look fine to me (though not great) but the animations look bad (slowly but surely they're getting better). There's nothing wrong with the actual visuals of which the game is constructed from. I'm not saying they're great because they're nothing to write home about but the visuals (again not the animations) certainly aren't counter-productive to playing the game at all.

Things like collision detection do need sorting though. I'd say they are pretty counter-productive. Watching a ball go through a player's body is silly.

Anyway i don't necessarily disagree because it seems like these problems exist because they tried to fit the older style ps2 engine around the newer tech and as much as i don't mind the graphics i don't think things work cohesively at the moment. If they'd have just come up with a semi-decent looking engine to begin with based around their philosophy for the game then we wouldn't have this problem (you know the kind of thing they did with the PS2 games). Seems like them trying to put two jigsaw pieces that don't fit together at times. I would put emphasis on decent looking engine though. I don't have faith in Konami one bit they could make a fantastic looking football game and a great game to go with it (more one or the other, currently it's like half of each).
 
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If Konami has placed aesthetics over game design (and I genuinely don't believe they have), then they've failed abysmally.

PES2012 looks pretty terrible on the PS3 by current standards. With the horrendous jaggies all over the place (slightly better on the 360), the low-res/muddy looking graphics in gameplay cameras, and the horrendous blur effect (seriously, what is that all about?), the game just looks a bit low-rent.

PES2010 was the graphical zenith of the series on this generation of consoles. I think the graphics have been purposefully downgraded since then because the game engine is so stretched that something had to give to make way for the new, more advanced AI. I can't see any other reason why the game would look worse for no good reason.
 
Jamezinho said:
If Konami has placed aesthetics over game design (and I genuinely don't believe they have), then they've failed abysmally.

PES2012 looks pretty terrible on the PS3 by current standards. With the horrendous jaggies all over the place (slightly better on the 360), the low-res/muddy looking graphics in gameplay cameras, and the horrendous blur effect (seriously, what is that all about?), the game just looks a bit low-rent.

PES2010 was the graphical zenith of the series on this generation of consoles. I think the graphics have been purposefully downgraded since then because the game engine is so stretched that something had to give to make way for the new, more advanced AI. I can't see any other reason why the game would look worse for no good reason.
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I agree with you. Where i would say they focused on the visuals over gameplay would be up until 2010. Then it feels like they got into a situation where they couldn't sort out the gameplay aspects without lessening the graphics (call it how the engine works on ps3/xbox). So it feels a bit like they got themselves into a situation where visuals came first then when they tried to add the gameplay elements like in 2011 and 2012 and couldn't manage to keep the visuals as they had them. If PES was willing to lower it's visuals more would it be the case that they could create better gameplay? Seems logically acceptable to believe that. I don't think they will. Even people now think the game doesn't look good enough. In truth i'd take these passable graphics we have now, even lesser graphics, if the game played much better. Right now we have a game that looks passable but doesn't play very well and that's the crux of the problem. It doesn't seem to satisfy either party.

To be honest i don't know what to think of as the problem. Current gen tech being lower than what people presume, bad engine optimization or both. I'd say both but more the latter. The tech is there but developers have to utilise it well and i don't think anybody would argue that Konami have done a good job of that.
 
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Jamezinho said:
If Konami has placed aesthetics over game design (and I genuinely don't believe they have), then they've failed abysmally.

PES2012 looks pretty terrible on the PS3 by current standards. With the horrendous jaggies all over the place (slightly better on the 360), the low-res/muddy looking graphics in gameplay cameras, and the horrendous blur effect (seriously, what is that all about?), the game just looks a bit low-rent.

PES2010 was the graphical zenith of the series on this generation of consoles. I think the graphics have been purposefully downgraded since then because the game engine is so stretched that something had to give to make way for the new, more advanced AI. I can't see any other reason why the game would look worse for no good reason.
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That wouldn't be so bad were it for the fact that the CPU AI is actually worse in 2011 and 2012 than in 2010. I played 2010 last night and went long periods where I couldn't get the bell bsck from the CPU, and the CPU scored from a long passing move that picked my defence apart. PES2010 feels like a proper midfield battle. If only the passing wasn't so automated it would be the best in the series by far.
 
LTFC said:
That wouldn't be so bad were it for the fact that the CPU AI is actually worse in 2011 and 2012 than in 2010. I played 2010 last night and went long periods where I couldn't get the bell bsck from the CPU, and the CPU scored from a long passing move that picked my defence apart. PES2010 feels like a proper midfield battle. If only the passing wasn't so automated it would be the best in the series by far.
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Teamvision 2.0 outperforming Active AI 1.0?
 
LTFC said:
I don't think 2013 will be much different because they're busy developing the new engine, or if not then they facking well should be...
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Seems Adam has had some play time with it.

So anyway, PES 2013 answers so much of what we wanted, plus that little bit extra. Keepers Shooting Passing . Adjustments to a magnitude of different gameplay elements has created a fantastic experience, so much so I'm finding it hard not to start expecting a high quality football game. Think realistic player control, new attributes created to factor in defensive ability and ball control.

Hell even the animations. Now I'm not talking about FIFA levels of overall movement and presentation, but I am talking another bump up in quality from PES 2012. Think a silly variety of individuality in this respect, too.
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Seems were finally getting player individualty this gen also.
 
Flaw3d Genius said:
Seems Adam has had some play time with it.



Seems were finally getting player individualty this gen also.
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Do not trust Adam's overhyping words. He is just describing the things Jon Murphy told him, he didn't play the game, at all.
Those are the same thing we will see in first press release, i think. But they are just words.
 
In Pes 2010 shooting was good. In Pes 2012 they changed it and is worse.

In Pes 2010 graphics was better. In Pes 2012 they changed it and is worse.

In Pes 2011 passing was better. In Pes 2012 they changed it and is worse.

In Pes 2011 freedom was nice. In Pes 2012 they changed it and is worse.

Simple question. Why? Why they made so much stupid mistakes?

Change important things leave good things. What is problem?
 
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